Comments on: Where Did They All Go? http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/ Thoughts from the heart of someone deep in the heart of Texas Sun, 15 Nov 2009 03:02:59 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: Lee http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6515 Lee Fri, 30 May 2008 01:44:40 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6515 Thanks, Ken. I'll be looking forward to reading that. Thanks, Ken. I’ll be looking forward to reading that.

]]> By: Ken Hall http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6514 Ken Hall Thu, 29 May 2008 20:40:13 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6514 Lee, Next week Glen Schmucker is going to be a guest blogger on my blog about the things that happened at Cliff Temple Church in Dallas. He recently resigned and has a unique perspective about churches in transition. I think he has a word for all of us in dealing with helping churches reach the communities that have changed. Lee,

Next week Glen Schmucker is going to be a guest blogger on my blog about the things that happened at Cliff Temple Church in Dallas. He recently resigned and has a unique perspective about churches in transition. I think he has a word for all of us in dealing with helping churches reach the communities that have changed.

]]> By: Jack Matthews http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6509 Jack Matthews Wed, 28 May 2008 02:53:14 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6509 Ah, here in the Baptist "Capital" the landscape is also dotted with dozens of Baptist churches that have become somewhat disconnected from their geography, and are aging and declining in number, and there seems to be no real fix. Near my house is a congregation once running upwards of 1000 in Sunday school. About a decade ago, their pastor of 35 years, a hard core traditionalist, retired, and the church slumped, down to something like 200 or less. Their "solution" has been to lease the major part of their facility, including their 1,000 seat sanctuary, to a gen-x type, non-denominational church with a 30 year old pastor who preaches with his shirt tail untucked. They draw close to 1,000 in two services on Sunday. I know several people who go there, including my administrative assistant. They attract a lot of young people and young families, but as far as being evangelistic goes, they are not winning large numbers of people to Christ. It is the consumer mentality all over again, it's about how "hip" and "trendy" they are, and the attraction of that image to people between 25 and 45. Walk through the front door and there's an 800 square foot coffee bar on the left, just outside the worship area. It's the package, and it almost seems designed to attract a Christian crowd. In fact, in the two or three times I've worshipped there, I ran into several people I used to go to church with at [the big, traditional, downtown Baptist church older than all the other Baptist churches in town]. Ah, here in the Baptist “Capital” the landscape is also dotted with dozens of Baptist churches that have become somewhat disconnected from their geography, and are aging and declining in number, and there seems to be no real fix.
Near my house is a congregation once running upwards of 1000 in Sunday school. About a decade ago, their pastor of 35 years, a hard core traditionalist, retired, and the church slumped, down to something like 200 or less. Their “solution” has been to lease the major part of their facility, including their 1,000 seat sanctuary, to a gen-x type, non-denominational church with a 30 year old pastor who preaches with his shirt tail untucked. They draw close to 1,000 in two services on Sunday. I know several people who go there, including my administrative assistant. They attract a lot of young people and young families, but as far as being evangelistic goes, they are not winning large numbers of people to Christ. It is the consumer mentality all over again, it’s about how “hip” and “trendy” they are, and the attraction of that image to people between 25 and 45. Walk through the front door and there’s an 800 square foot coffee bar on the left, just outside the worship area. It’s the package, and it almost seems designed to attract a Christian crowd. In fact, in the two or three times I’ve worshipped there, I ran into several people I used to go to church with at [the big, traditional, downtown Baptist church older than all the other Baptist churches in town].

]]> By: Lee http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6508 Lee Wed, 28 May 2008 02:35:15 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6508 Sam, You are right about the way we choose churches, and the consumer mentality. We can't compete with the franchise congregations. We are an interesting blend, made up partly of the fabric of the old neighborhood, and partly of that which is moving in. Most of our new members come from one of the two big Baptist "franchises" in town, or the House of Osteen. So in the assimilation and discipleship process, we have to retrain. Todd, I've been doing discipleship, mobilization, assimilation and evangelism ministries for two years, and there's probably not a program or method that I haven't at least read up on in that period of time. But I have come to the conclusion that imitation isn't what we need. We need to be open to a movement of the Holy Spirit, and that is what we need to pray for, and seek after. We need to be open to it, not afraid of it, and let God have his way. Our worship needs to be shaken, and lit on fire. Sam,
You are right about the way we choose churches, and the consumer mentality. We can’t compete with the franchise congregations. We are an interesting blend, made up partly of the fabric of the old neighborhood, and partly of that which is moving in. Most of our new members come from one of the two big Baptist “franchises” in town, or the House of Osteen. So in the assimilation and discipleship process, we have to retrain.

Todd,
I’ve been doing discipleship, mobilization, assimilation and evangelism ministries for two years, and there’s probably not a program or method that I haven’t at least read up on in that period of time. But I have come to the conclusion that imitation isn’t what we need. We need to be open to a movement of the Holy Spirit, and that is what we need to pray for, and seek after. We need to be open to it, not afraid of it, and let God have his way. Our worship needs to be shaken, and lit on fire.

]]> By: Steve Austin http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6507 Steve Austin Tue, 27 May 2008 23:25:09 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6507 The best-growing churches in my town have no reputation for power struggles and don't seem to have contests for control. The ones that had public disputes fifteen years ago are apparently still paying for it reputationally. My old gray-hair country church is about fifteen funerals from going away/merging. The best-growing churches in my town have no reputation for power struggles and don’t seem to have contests for control. The ones that had public disputes fifteen years ago are apparently still paying for it reputationally.

My old gray-hair country church is about fifteen funerals from going away/merging.

]]> By: Sam Swart http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6504 Sam Swart Tue, 27 May 2008 17:49:58 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6504 Lee, The housing trend in your churches' neighborhood is to tear down the 70 year-old houses and build new and bigger. Original businesses and restaurants struggle to hang on with their original customer base while being supplanted by big chains or trendy boutiques. Is your church a part of the old fabric of the neighborhood that is disappearing? Would a new church building 'franchised' by one of the big successful congregations on your site be a more successful model? I think the answer is yes and I find that discouraging. Loyalty to denomination brands may be in decline, but loyalty to successful churches is growing and leading to a new model for church expansion. It seems a church is either 'it' or it's not. Success just seems to draw folks in regardless of the product offered. Americans choose churches like we choose housing, shoes and hamburgers. I don't have any answers, because I believe church growth is so tied to the American consumer mindset that all the turn around tactics we tout are little more than trading one leaky bucket for another as we continue to bail out the boat. This is not to say I don't have hope. There is hope aplenty for followers of Christ. Our vehicles for transmitting the gospel may falter, but God will always provide new means. I pray for wisdom to recognize them. Sam Lee,

The housing trend in your churches’ neighborhood is to tear down the 70 year-old houses and build new and bigger. Original businesses and restaurants struggle to hang on with their original customer base while being supplanted by big chains or trendy boutiques. Is your church a part of the old fabric of the neighborhood that is disappearing? Would a new church building ‘franchised’ by one of the big successful congregations on your site be a more successful model? I think the answer is yes and I find that discouraging.

Loyalty to denomination brands may be in decline, but loyalty to successful churches is growing and leading to a new model for church expansion. It seems a church is either ‘it’ or it’s not. Success just seems to draw folks in regardless of the product offered. Americans choose churches like we choose housing, shoes and hamburgers.

I don’t have any answers, because I believe church growth is so tied to the American consumer mindset that all the turn around tactics we tout are little more than trading one leaky bucket for another as we continue to bail out the boat.

This is not to say I don’t have hope. There is hope aplenty for followers of Christ. Our vehicles for transmitting the gospel may falter, but God will always provide new means. I pray for wisdom to recognize them.

Sam

]]> By: tpylant http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6502 tpylant Tue, 27 May 2008 15:53:54 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6502 The idea of leading a church to change at the right time is important. Once a church looses that window of opportunity, it is simply too late. Judging when the window is beginning to close is the art of leadership. But the previous statement that a church can be vibrant and on the way to death at the same time is very true. Convincing a congregation that what they are doing now will not be effective 5 years from now is hard work. Many pastors have lost their job trying (and I hope to not add to their numbers). But the reality is that if we keep doing what we are doing then we will keep getting what we are getting. If we want a different output, then we need a different input. But, the bottom line is that we need a fresh move of the Spirit of God. I am about finished with trying to put makeup on the pig. The gospel is what the gospel is. Trying to attract the lost with other stuff and then "bait and switch" with the gospel just has not worked. The redemptive gospel is the good news that our society, as a whole, simply does not want. Unless the Lord moves again in the hearts of humanity, we may never see times of refreshing from the Lord. Holy Spirit, breath on me (us)... Todd Pylant The idea of leading a church to change at the right time is important. Once a church looses that window of opportunity, it is simply too late. Judging when the window is beginning to close is the art of leadership. But the previous statement that a church can be vibrant and on the way to death at the same time is very true. Convincing a congregation that what they are doing now will not be effective 5 years from now is hard work. Many pastors have lost their job trying (and I hope to not add to their numbers). But the reality is that if we keep doing what we are doing then we will keep getting what we are getting. If we want a different output, then we need a different input.

But, the bottom line is that we need a fresh move of the Spirit of God. I am about finished with trying to put makeup on the pig. The gospel is what the gospel is. Trying to attract the lost with other stuff and then “bait and switch” with the gospel just has not worked. The redemptive gospel is the good news that our society, as a whole, simply does not want. Unless the Lord moves again in the hearts of humanity, we may never see times of refreshing from the Lord.

Holy Spirit, breath on me (us)…

Todd Pylant

]]> By: Ellis Orozco http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6499 Ellis Orozco Tue, 27 May 2008 03:03:35 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6499 Lee: Wow. Sounds to me like ya'll are already miles ahead of most Baptist churches in your context. That's awesome. I've read all the latest on emergent church, and the "shaping of things to come," etc. and there's some great thing to learn from the emerging thinkers. I especially resonate with the idea of incarnational ministry. However, I'm convinced that at some point we have to get them integrated into the life of a worshipping and discipling community. That community doesn't have to be traditional and it doesn't have to be large ... but, it does have to be worshipping and discipling (and intentional about that). My contention is that the best bet for that is still the church. Especially one that is willing to make the changes your church has made. Now ... how to reach the Gen-Xers and Baby boomers that are moving into the pricy, historic district near your church ... that's a question for those far more qualified and experienced than I. I really can't help you there. I've always been better at reaching the poor. You've hit on the two most important things: the fire of the Spirit, and the hearts of the people. I would only add ... the vision of the leadership. But it sounds to me like you've got all that ... you're headed in the right direction. Sometimes it just takes longer than what we expect or want ... I'm praying for you today ... blessings, ellis Lee:

Wow. Sounds to me like ya’ll are already miles ahead of most Baptist churches in your context. That’s awesome.

I’ve read all the latest on emergent church, and the “shaping of things to come,” etc. and there’s some great thing to learn from the emerging thinkers. I especially resonate with the idea of incarnational ministry.

However, I’m convinced that at some point we have to get them integrated into the life of a worshipping and discipling community. That community doesn’t have to be traditional and it doesn’t have to be large … but, it does have to be worshipping and discipling (and intentional about that). My contention is that the best bet for that is still the church. Especially one that is willing to make the changes your church has made.

Now … how to reach the Gen-Xers and Baby boomers that are moving into the pricy, historic district near your church … that’s a question for those far more qualified and experienced than I. I really can’t help you there. I’ve always been better at reaching the poor.

You’ve hit on the two most important things: the fire of the Spirit, and the hearts of the people. I would only add … the vision of the leadership.

But it sounds to me like you’ve got all that … you’re headed in the right direction. Sometimes it just takes longer than what we expect or want …
I’m praying for you today …

blessings,
ellis

]]> By: Lee http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6497 Lee Mon, 26 May 2008 22:41:20 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6497 Our church is really not the typical Baptist congregation you find in most places in this city, we're not a predominantly gray head, anglo, "piano driven" congregation. (I like that description, and I'll use it some day) There is really no predominant age group in the church, though the 20 to 30 year old group is small, we are pretty much in balance from 30 on up, and we are also only about 50% anglo, 40% hispanic and 10% Asian and African American which is what the neighborhood around us looks like. We've made some important changes, particularly by adding small groups and contemporary worship. We really need to get that sense of being on mission into our DNA. And I would also say we need a touch of the Holy Spirit's fire. I've run into a lot of people, from among the droves of Gen-X and baby boomers who are moving into the neighborhood (paying upwards of half a million for a medium sized home, just because it is in a historic district) who would be among those Colby describes as not interested in going to a Baptist church even if we had a dance and the beer was free. But at the moment, not identifying as a Baptist congregation is out of the question. So we are going to have to reach them in other ways. Our building is in use seven days a week, and we probably have more than 1,000 people come to various activities there, from Jazzercize classes to our Early Learning Center to group meetings. That's the place to start. I think we have to be open to change, but not just for the sake of change. I think we really have to be set on fire by the Spirit and develop an urgency to reach lost people. Our church is really not the typical Baptist congregation you find in most places in this city, we’re not a predominantly gray head, anglo, “piano driven” congregation. (I like that description, and I’ll use it some day) There is really no predominant age group in the church, though the 20 to 30 year old group is small, we are pretty much in balance from 30 on up, and we are also only about 50% anglo, 40% hispanic and 10% Asian and African American which is what the neighborhood around us looks like. We’ve made some important changes, particularly by adding small groups and contemporary worship. We really need to get that sense of being on mission into our DNA. And I would also say we need a touch of the Holy Spirit’s fire.

I’ve run into a lot of people, from among the droves of Gen-X and baby boomers who are moving into the neighborhood (paying upwards of half a million for a medium sized home, just because it is in a historic district) who would be among those Colby describes as not interested in going to a Baptist church even if we had a dance and the beer was free. But at the moment, not identifying as a Baptist congregation is out of the question. So we are going to have to reach them in other ways. Our building is in use seven days a week, and we probably have more than 1,000 people come to various activities there, from Jazzercize classes to our Early Learning Center to group meetings. That’s the place to start.

I think we have to be open to change, but not just for the sake of change. I think we really have to be set on fire by the Spirit and develop an urgency to reach lost people.

]]> By: Ellis Orozco http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/2008/05/25/where-did-they-all-go/#comment-6496 Ellis Orozco Mon, 26 May 2008 20:33:44 +0000 http://deepintheheart.wordpress.com/?p=234#comment-6496 Lee: You have described many churches in Texas. I appreciate your sincere desire to reach the world around you. What is the cultural/ethnic makeup of your church's zip code? If it's vastly different than what you currently have in your church, then you're in big trouble. What I mean is this: Most churches start making the necessary changes about 10-20 years too late. Your church needed to start making some radical changes when it sank to about 500 in SS. At that point it was still relatively able to maintain the full campus and was probably still attracting some younger families. If they were not willing to make the changes at that point, or were uninformed of the necessary changes ... then, that's why they find themselves in the situation they are in. It's a sad state, and unfortunatley, very common. If the folks in your church look nothing like the community around your church ... you will never get the community to come inside your doors. They just won't do it. It's not that your folks are unkind or unwelcoming (I'm sure they're wonderful) ... it's just too different. You can do all kinds of community outreach and emphasis on "getting out there and winning people to the Lord," but if there's nothing relevant for them to come to in worship and Bible Study, then you'll never get them into a healthy, growing situation within the life of the church. Now ... everything Tim said is right on target. The problem is that the churches he mentioned had the DNA of cultural relevancy built into them from day one. AND they have not stopped changing. Once a church stops changing ... it's on its way to death. Willowcreek, by the way, is starting realize that while they're still very viable! I'm not trying to be rude to the people in your church. I'm sure they are wonderful Christian people who truly want to reach out to others. It's just that neighborhoods are changing rapidly. It's hard to keep up. Most churches just wind up trying to maintain their facility. They're planting flowers all around their coffin. If you can't get people into your church (and if you have the name Baptist on the front, and your platform personnel look nothing like the community, and most in the pew have white hair and blue eyes, and your music is piano driven ... you will NOT get them to come in) ... then the best you can do is to innovate around the existing structures. Start churches that will reach the community. Let them use your facility for free (and at the prime hours). Start off-campus small groups that worship at a satellite location, with a completely different feel from your church. Start a language-specific congregation. I'm sure you can think of other ideas ... With these new works or initiatives build several things into the DNA: 1. Every member is a missionary, on mission for God everywhere they go; 2. Change is happening everywhere and the church is no exception. There will be changes practically every Sunday ... get over it; 3. The most important language is the language that the culture speaks. Therefore, that's the language we will speak; 4. If you join this church God will probably call you to sell everything you have and follow him (most likely to a third-world country, because that's where the need is the greatest). My church is where your church was 20 years ago. Vibrant and energetic and viable ... and on the way to death ... if we are not willing to make the necessary changes to reach the culture around us. Pray for us ... I'm praying for you. blessings, ellis Lee:

You have described many churches in Texas. I appreciate your sincere desire to reach the world around you.

What is the cultural/ethnic makeup of your church’s zip code? If it’s vastly different than what you currently have in your church, then you’re in big trouble.

What I mean is this: Most churches start making the necessary changes about 10-20 years too late. Your church needed to start making some radical changes when it sank to about 500 in SS. At that point it was still relatively able to maintain the full campus and was probably still attracting some younger families. If they were not willing to make the changes at that point, or were uninformed of the necessary changes … then, that’s why they find themselves in the situation they are in. It’s a sad state, and unfortunatley, very common.

If the folks in your church look nothing like the community around your church … you will never get the community to come inside your doors. They just won’t do it. It’s not that your folks are unkind or unwelcoming (I’m sure they’re wonderful) … it’s just too different.

You can do all kinds of community outreach and emphasis on “getting out there and winning people to the Lord,” but if there’s nothing relevant for them to come to in worship and Bible Study, then you’ll never get them into a healthy, growing situation within the life of the church.

Now … everything Tim said is right on target. The problem is that the churches he mentioned had the DNA of cultural relevancy built into them from day one. AND they have not stopped changing. Once a church stops changing … it’s on its way to death. Willowcreek, by the way, is starting realize that while they’re still very viable!

I’m not trying to be rude to the people in your church. I’m sure they are wonderful Christian people who truly want to reach out to others. It’s just that neighborhoods are changing rapidly. It’s hard to keep up. Most churches just wind up trying to maintain their facility. They’re planting flowers all around their coffin.

If you can’t get people into your church (and if you have the name Baptist on the front, and your platform personnel look nothing like the community, and most in the pew have white hair and blue eyes, and your music is piano driven … you will NOT get them to come in) … then the best you can do is to innovate around the existing structures.

Start churches that will reach the community. Let them use your facility for free (and at the prime hours). Start off-campus small groups that worship at a satellite location, with a completely different feel from your church. Start a language-specific congregation. I’m sure you can think of other ideas …

With these new works or initiatives build several things into the DNA: 1. Every member is a missionary, on mission for God everywhere they go; 2. Change is happening everywhere and the church is no exception. There will be changes practically every Sunday … get over it; 3. The most important language is the language that the culture speaks. Therefore, that’s the language we will speak; 4. If you join this church God will probably call you to sell everything you have and follow him (most likely to a third-world country, because that’s where the need is the greatest).

My church is where your church was 20 years ago. Vibrant and energetic and viable … and on the way to death … if we are not willing to make the necessary changes to reach the culture around us. Pray for us … I’m praying for you.

blessings,
ellis

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